Alright, I've been kind of dreading making this post because of the backlash I may (or may not) receive but I'm going to do it anyway. Over at the Gundam Australia boards Sonar/Tonzo made a comment about my attention to realism and the physics of these imaginary machines. I've done this more than once refering to the wing binders of the Sinanju and the weight of the Infinite Justice being supported by such thin ankles. I mean look at this!
These are supposed to support just under 40 tons of weight each?! One crack at the area where the red line is and this thing is going down like a... uh... 18m tall walking tank... >_> *cue nervous look*
I'm at it again today with something that has really been nagging at me. The RX-93.
Just mentioning this I'm sure a lot of you know where I'm going with it. All stats are from MAHQ.
Dimensions: overall height 23.0 meters; head height 22.0 meters
Weight: empty 27.9 metric tons; max gross 63.0 metric tons
Big. We all know that.
Propulsion: rocket thrusters: 4 x 18300 kg, 2 x 12300 kg = 97800kg at full burn. 26 verniers (which I understand to be minor stabilizing thrusters. I have no idea what 'apogee motors' are. I know what an apogee is but the motor idea... that's lost on me.)
Sinanju is 128600 kg for the record. I previously said that each wing has an output of 64300kg of thrust per wing which may not be the case. The thrust output for the waist and leg thrusters isn't listed, so if the total thrust is 128600 kg including all the burners than the wing output is probably less than 64300.
Right. Who cares. Imaginary machines. But it's the principle of it! If you're going to make the numbers and put them out there, make the numbers right!
OK putting those numbers off to the side... I want to talk about the design on the RX-93 and how it would work within the rules of physics for this reality.
I don't have any problem with the Nu Gundam by itself but when I see it with the fin funnels attached I have a bit of trouble suspending my disbelief.
Look at that. Shouldn't this thing be toppling over? Obviously, my main issue is where the supposed center of gravity/mass would be with a suit like this. With the thrusters distributed symmetrically around the suit itself, it would take a massive amount of computations and thruster control to make this thing maneuverable. I know it's a prototype suit but still... the principles...
We can have to assume a couple of things first for lack of more detailed information:
1.)All 6 funnels have the same weight and mass as each other.
2.)The suit itself is built with even weight distribution with the center of mass running somewhere along the central vertical axis.
3.)The weight of the rifle and shield balance each other out.
The weight and position of the those funnels would cause the whole center of mass to swing outside of the suit, towards the shield arm. Provided that the Nu has even thrust from all burners it would be spinning left constantly because of the extra weight.
Now launch a couple funnels... the weight and center of mass change again, unfold them but keep them docked and the center of mass changes yet again! Imagine it in this configuration.
Better than the conventional one but still... how can you balance this thing? It's constantly fluctuating. The on-board computer must be going crazy trying to compute how much thrust is needed from each thruster independently just to make this thing go in a straight line. Never mind the psycoframe system and the processing drain that must take... it bugs when when I think about it. The only way it works for me is with another set of funnels on the opposite side, in the same configuration, to balance it out.
But that still won't change the fluctuation issues. And don't get me started and the HWS version!
Makes my head want to explode. The strain that shield thruster must put on those thin elbow and shoulder joints... my goodness. I don't know, maybe those future materials can handle it... but still... it bugs me. I take my Sci-Fi machines seriously! and I can suspend my disbelief for a lot of things.
U.S.S Enterprise? Ridiculous ship design. Well, until they got to the E-Type and after but whatever. I can let it go.
X-Wings, A-Wing, Y-Wings, hell even the B-Wing. Star Destroyers... now you're talking. And don't get me started on the Macross Valkryies... I mean... just... the pinnacle.
So I'm sticking with the Hi-Nu as the superior design all around. (Yes. With this colour scheme.)
There are no stats outside of height and weight so I can't pick on it. Symmetrical, smaller, more efficient, good thruster location and balancing and most important for me... believable. As much as anyone can believe in these machines but... you wouldn't have read this if you didn't want to believe in it somewhat right?
These are supposed to support just under 40 tons of weight each?! One crack at the area where the red line is and this thing is going down like a... uh... 18m tall walking tank... >_> *cue nervous look*
I'm at it again today with something that has really been nagging at me. The RX-93.
Just mentioning this I'm sure a lot of you know where I'm going with it. All stats are from MAHQ.
Dimensions: overall height 23.0 meters; head height 22.0 meters
Weight: empty 27.9 metric tons; max gross 63.0 metric tons
Big. We all know that.
Propulsion: rocket thrusters: 4 x 18300 kg, 2 x 12300 kg = 97800kg at full burn. 26 verniers (which I understand to be minor stabilizing thrusters. I have no idea what 'apogee motors' are. I know what an apogee is but the motor idea... that's lost on me.)
Sinanju is 128600 kg for the record. I previously said that each wing has an output of 64300kg of thrust per wing which may not be the case. The thrust output for the waist and leg thrusters isn't listed, so if the total thrust is 128600 kg including all the burners than the wing output is probably less than 64300.
Right. Who cares. Imaginary machines. But it's the principle of it! If you're going to make the numbers and put them out there, make the numbers right!
OK putting those numbers off to the side... I want to talk about the design on the RX-93 and how it would work within the rules of physics for this reality.
I don't have any problem with the Nu Gundam by itself but when I see it with the fin funnels attached I have a bit of trouble suspending my disbelief.
Look at that. Shouldn't this thing be toppling over? Obviously, my main issue is where the supposed center of gravity/mass would be with a suit like this. With the thrusters distributed symmetrically around the suit itself, it would take a massive amount of computations and thruster control to make this thing maneuverable. I know it's a prototype suit but still... the principles...
We can have to assume a couple of things first for lack of more detailed information:
1.)All 6 funnels have the same weight and mass as each other.
2.)The suit itself is built with even weight distribution with the center of mass running somewhere along the central vertical axis.
3.)The weight of the rifle and shield balance each other out.
The weight and position of the those funnels would cause the whole center of mass to swing outside of the suit, towards the shield arm. Provided that the Nu has even thrust from all burners it would be spinning left constantly because of the extra weight.
Now launch a couple funnels... the weight and center of mass change again, unfold them but keep them docked and the center of mass changes yet again! Imagine it in this configuration.
Better than the conventional one but still... how can you balance this thing? It's constantly fluctuating. The on-board computer must be going crazy trying to compute how much thrust is needed from each thruster independently just to make this thing go in a straight line. Never mind the psycoframe system and the processing drain that must take... it bugs when when I think about it. The only way it works for me is with another set of funnels on the opposite side, in the same configuration, to balance it out.
But that still won't change the fluctuation issues. And don't get me started and the HWS version!
Makes my head want to explode. The strain that shield thruster must put on those thin elbow and shoulder joints... my goodness. I don't know, maybe those future materials can handle it... but still... it bugs me. I take my Sci-Fi machines seriously! and I can suspend my disbelief for a lot of things.
U.S.S Enterprise? Ridiculous ship design. Well, until they got to the E-Type and after but whatever. I can let it go.
X-Wings, A-Wing, Y-Wings, hell even the B-Wing. Star Destroyers... now you're talking. And don't get me started on the Macross Valkryies... I mean... just... the pinnacle.
So I'm sticking with the Hi-Nu as the superior design all around. (Yes. With this colour scheme.)
There are no stats outside of height and weight so I can't pick on it. Symmetrical, smaller, more efficient, good thruster location and balancing and most important for me... believable. As much as anyone can believe in these machines but... you wouldn't have read this if you didn't want to believe in it somewhat right?
I agree with the comments you made, especially what Sonar has mentioned about you ;) I have been visiting your page since I found out about GAF, and think all your work is great!
ReplyDeleteOn this matter, I never quite liked the Nu Gundam's and their designs, but appreciated their funnel weapons and their design...
Don't worry about realism. Most of these suits spend their live fighting in space or in the air.
ReplyDeleteImagine the NZ-666 fighting under Earth's gravity... even its upcoming model had lock put into the joints.
In the novelization of MS Gundam, they point out 2 technological breakthroughs that make UC possible. One is the Minovsky particle that absorbs all EM waves and is also used to make compact fusion reactors. The second is the AMBAC system, that handles all the complex calculations necessaary to fire off the vernier thrusters to keep the MS under control. So, if you have the funnels on the left side of the MS, AMBAC will automatically give the right side thrusters more power to compensate. Without AMBAC, even changing the position of your arms or legs will change your center of mass. This is how figure skaters and increase their rotation speed by drawing thier arms closer to their bodies.
ReplyDeleteright right, even moving arms and legs would cause the center of mass to fluctuate but i figure that can be compensated for with a simpler auto balancing program. the funnels would be more intense (unless the way next to nothing). but that AMBAC system would explain a lot. still tho... i would be working overtime with this suit. thanks for comment
ReplyDeletezahmad - thanks for talking a look! i appreciate your comment!
anon - i cannot imagine the nz-666 working in gravity at all. i dont know how it would get off the ground!
yeah i know i shouldnt worry about the realism but i dont think worry is the right word. in the grand scheme of things 'kids jacking gundams' bothers me a lot more than any perceived physics problems. still tho... the best sci fi to me satisfies both sides of the brain. the fantastic and realistic. thats what im looking for.
Darth Mingus definitely hit it spot on with details about the AMBAC. Thats some good & relevant info there.
ReplyDeleteBB: I like this post a lot. You should do more. I enjoy how you delve yourself into the details of things.
Spot on. Love the analysis, particularly when you have technical data to back it up with. Personally I have to look the other way with the Nu because it's one of my favourite looking MS. ^^;
ReplyDeleteNu was built for space, I dont think weight and weight support is a problem...F_ck I just reminded myself why america doesnt have giant robots in their sci fiction
ReplyDeleteI think with the way the Nu Gundam is designed, it would be easier for it to make left turns quicker and easier due to the added mass of the shield and the funnels.
ReplyDeleteWell, I always liked the semi-realism of Gundam and Macross to an extent with the mechanical designs.
ReplyDeleteBut then again, if you really stop to think about it, the idea of kids jacking gundams, followed by espers controlling said fin funnels with their minds, or that song power rules all... well that sort of discredits any semi-realism it might have had.
Anyways, I liked the fin funnels, but agree on the design of the Nu Gundam, asymetrical has always been a stickler for me. I think that's why I've found the Hi-Nu Gundam to be much better and more attractive to look at. The fin funnel design just makes more _sense_
Hi-Nu is <3.
ReplyDeleteThat is all.
for the record, just because it's a space suit doesnt mean that its all ok. of course theres less stress on it than in gravity but the beauty of construction in space is that its pure physics with no need to factor in air pressure and the effects of gravity (at least from the perspective of operating in an environment with atmosphere). however the thrust/joint/weight/mass problems are all still going to be in effect even in space. the dont just dissappear. only a couple of other factors do.
ReplyDeleteand dont get me wrong... i actually like how the nu gundam looks and i like the concept of it and i think it looks cool but... from a physics standpoint it makes me cringe.
but yeah... there are a lot of silly things about these mecha series that we like. a lot of them are aimed at kids after all and who need realism there? macross frontier hurt me a lot for a 1000 different reasons.
thanks for your comments everyone!
oh, i'm interested to hear how macross f hurt you? I take it not just on the mechanical design? Or the half assed fold crystals and crarp that fell apart in the middle of the show?
ReplyDeleteAt least the fights were cool
Haha I guess on the physics issue here i've always ignored these physical facts because there are more obvious examples. Gundam 00! Damn i hate this series so much i feel like shooting the designer of the Gundams and GN Drive in the head.
ReplyDeleteThey say GN Drive is a solar furnace, but when i did some small research on it on9 it explained that GN Drive harnesses Baryonic matter (fundamental particles) to produce GN particles and release photons, which is the green light. The problem right here, the chemical process sound like a Nuclear Fission reactor that uses fundamental particles rather than radioactive materials. Pls Sunrise, i need an explanation, Solar furnaces make use of light (photons) to generate electric and energy and GN Drive is on the total opposite (release photons instead)!!!
The second problem, The GN Drive supposedly is not detectable by radar because it does not produce heat. Pls, once again, tell me where do you find 100% efficiency superconductors and how to make sure a chemical fission reaction is 100% efficient, releasing ZERO HEAT, Sunrise?
Third, I wonder what material is the armor of mobile suits in Gundam 00. If TRans-Am is really that fast, the G-Force alone will tear the whole suit apart. E-carbon is not really a strong material, in fact the engines can't be made from E-carbon. Teach me how to quantize a whole Gundam too.
4th: How is a GN Drive supposed to create an anti-gravity effect? How do you make an obese Virtue to fly under gravity with just 1 GN Drive???
Pls, sunrise, fire the director of Gundam 00, he is not fit for producing a Gundam series.
EX-
ReplyDeleteyou do realize these are works of fiction right? Like Star Wars and Star Trek and the Bond movies, the tech and wonders featured are not currently plausible. Or are very limited in regards to performance. And the setting of the Gundam worlds have a much more high-tech world.
I think you'll make a very good non-fiction writer.
asm - about macross f, the fights were amazing and i really like the mecha designs actually. outside of the head of the vf-27. i thought the macross quarter and galaxy transformations were a bit much but... hell its not THAT different from the sdf-1, which is ridiculous in its own right but its cool... AND its alien technology so i can let it go. everything in macross has got to change into something! haha. no my biggest problem with it was the fact that it was basically an overgrown music video. two girls after the same guy whos practically a girl himself. lotta things fell apart for me near the end but i just didnt like the love triangle thing and the immaturity of it all. like the way everyone was acting. i wanted more fighting but they just kinda whipped something all together in the last 2 eps and that was it! just a bit too much for me. macross plus is really where my heart is at. no complaints about that one at all.
ReplyDeleteexkuro - whoa dude. i cant help you out on that one. gn particles is outside of my realm. but i get your gripe. my idea is the solar furnace is a part of the gn drive as well so it can go by both names. that would also explain the low heat signature. gn drive generates photons from the particle/energy conversion and the furnace takes some of those photons and generates even more energy. but the whole system goes by either name, with both systems in place it could theoretically be 100% efficient. sunrise doesnt have to tell us how their devices work in detail. the problem is when they ignore physics all together. some things we just have to give up to 'lack of information'. materials i'll let go. it takes place however many hundred of years in the future so maybe they have something tough enough to with stand the force (same goes for my complaints about pressure on the joints of UC suits). quantizing? i saw it but i dont get it. I have no idea wtf they're talking about and what basis is has in real science. i dont even want to guess. it was something they used like once and never explained. 00 has its share of problems too to be sure. but physically speaking the mechs arent that ridiculous. outside of seravee which can pop beam saber wielding hands out of its gun nozzles... wtf. and the anti grav thing... no clue about that either. makes no sense but... we just have to let it go sometimes. still tho... doesnt make for good sci fi is we look at those fictional machines and discard them outright. there needs to be an element of truth in these machines in order for it to be believable. gundam has never been the best at that... but it tries harder than a lot of other mecha shows. at least sometimes (i'm looking at igloo and 08th team specifically), zeta/zz newtype hax not so much
@Busterbeam
ReplyDeleteActually every single Gundam series' technologies are questionable. The problem with Gundam 00 is that everything has gone overboard that i just couldn't ignore it. A very simple example that defied physics: Regnant's beam can bend halfway during its projection! I was like shouting F*** You at Sunrise. Isn't light is supposed to travel straight? Sunrise is trying to tell: "Issac Newton, your laws are all wrong". In SEED, i can at least explain why forbidden's beam can bend, probrably because of the use of dense colloid particles at the nozzle and combined with refracting microprisms at the nozzle of the cannon which adjusts the projection before firing. This explains why the beam is bent, but at least it's curved, unlike Regnant's beam that bend at shrap angles suddenly. This is pathetic.
Holy sh.. I had to stop reading. I'll have to come back to the rest of those comments.
ReplyDeleteI am a believer in suspending disbelief. I also like to tell myself that the technology and materials in the future is so far ahead of our current comprehension of what is possible and what is not that we could not begin to understand it with what we currently know.
I would hate to analyse every microcosm of 00 like that. I really enjoyed the show because I was able to take the rich ideas with a grain of salt.
Exkurogane you obviously know a bit about physics and I enjoyed reading the science as you tell it. I can't relate to your overly passionate statements about firing directors and calling things pathetic though. If you wanted an anime that was scientifically accurate to the letter you were looking in the wrong place, which you would already know if you have watched any other Gundam before 00.
Buster: This all got me thinking last night. Can I take it to a really simplified level for a second? Forget about weight distribution and thruster output for a minute. If the fin funnels throw off the balance and weight distribution of the MS so much, why is the model able to support it's weight so well and balance quite nicely? Is it something to do with the pressure being applied at the joins consecutively higher between each fin funnel? Is it to do with the die cast hip and ankle joints? My theory is if it works on a small scale, theoretically it may not be that ludicrous on a huge scale. xD
Aren't GN weapons relying on the particles? All they'd need is an emitter to project the GN particles like those green lenses for the Seraphim/Seravee. What is really ridiculous is that an emitter so small that its built into the back of a hand packs a bigger punch than a full-sized GN rifle.
ReplyDeleteThen again its all fiction...
EX-
I believe light is both a particle and a wave, could be wrong though. Aside from that, real world physics would not allow the Forbidden to maintain a bent beam like it was a ballistic projectile. To do what it did would require it to saturate the battlefield with colloid particles to maintain the curve because the beam will on a straight path once it get far enough from the distortion.
whoo this is starting to get intense. i knew something like this would happen once i brought it up.
ReplyDeleteex- you're getting outside of my league there. i agree that the beam bending is a bit strange but im not even going to attempt to explain the curve or the sharp angle type. something strange is definitely going on there. just have to chalk it up to bad sci fi
tonzo - i think you have a good mind frame when approaching this type of stuff. we cant nit pick about everything otherwise we wont be able to enjoy the good parts.
i like your idea about small scale translating to big scale and that should be true... but i wrote all that as someone how has ZERO experience with any kind of rx-93 model. so in that area, your observations of the physical structure and construction are valid. but the crux of my argument is how a suit like this would operate in space. not how well it would balance in an environment with gravity. im sure it could stand and walk and do whatever in a an gravity environment. my main concern is how the weight distribution is going to effect how it moves in space. thats where my head's at.
anon - i like your points about the lenses on the back of the hands. it is pretty silly. haha you guys are pointing out a lot of things i didnt realize. and the physics is there for light to be both a particle and a wave (i think hawking wrote about that in "A Brief History of Time" but i read that a while ago. cant remember all the details). that said i'm staying away from the bent beam topic. i can make it work in my mind with the right technology but none of those ideas where ever brought up in the side/destiny story as far as i know. it just kinda happened and we were all just supposed say 'wow' i guess.
http://z11.invisionfree.com/gundam00/index.php?s=4e0c77bef61b7915236948f86f5931ce&showtopic=699&st=0
ReplyDeleteRead the whole thing first please, before commenting any "I only read it about XX% of way through, and...". It's confusing, sometimes contrasting, but it cleared up a whole lot for me. Bear in mind that it IS THEORETICAL, but I read it and thought it quite logical, to a point.
Anonymous, agree with your point though. ^^; But i can't help getting annoyed by the fact the gundams actually "float" no matter how heavy it is in Gundam 00.
ReplyDeleteMy Favourite physics application in the Gundam series is the Phase Shift Armor from SEED. Utilizing high voltage on the electrons of the metal/armor surface of the gundam to initiate Spectrum emission from the armor and ionise the elctrons into a full negative charge that repels any melee weapon (since armors are a mix of metals)and protect the suit from melee attack. Different voltage settings will result in different wavelength of photon emission from the electrons and hence you get different colors on the armor that are adjustable. I thought changing armor's color from black and white to others is nonsense but now i get the idea behind it. Sounds practical but the problem is energy issues.
Things do not scale up in size evenly in Real Life.
ReplyDeleteHeard of the Square Cube Law? The mass of an object goes up by the cube of its size (2x2x2=8) but the factors that strengthern it and surface area only go up by the square of the size (2x2=4.
In simple terms, something 10x bigger in each direction will have 1000x the mass, but only 100x the strength.
@Exkurogane
ReplyDeleteactually, light does bend ...around space because space is a fabric. einstein theorized it, a solar ecplise proved it when a star was visible even though it was behind the sun. this dude, his name escapes me right now, viewed it..
i forgot to add
ReplyDeletei guess you have to keep that into context that there's a ton of (really really really heavy square shaped?) matter in that space for the light to bend (sharply) around the beam rifle...